Feb 24, 2021
Today I'm speaking with Kate Pearce, of Kate Pearce EducationalServices, about reading deficits, assessments, and the importanceof proper reading instruction.
Kate is a reading specialist, educator, advocate, mom, and,yes... proud dyslexic! She provides reading assessments,instruction, and consultative services to parents and schools. Joinus while we discuss what you need to know about reading issues!
You can find Kate here:
https://www.empoweredreader.com/
And you can find me here:
https://www.facebook.com/NTKWDJ
TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
reading, child, teachers, dyslexia, students, parents, read,writing, teaching, kids, hear, orton gillingham, language, talking,learn, dyslexic, test, kate, knew, trained
SPEAKERS
Kate Pearce, Dana Jonson
Dana Jonson 00:00
Today I am speaking to Kate Pierce from Kate Pierce educationalservices. Hi, Kate, thank you for joining me. Hi, I Kate is areading and language specialist or what I would call a reading andlanguage specialist. I don't know if there's an actual list ofcriteria for that. But you are one of the go twos here inConnecticut. So I wanted to talk to you today because what I'mseeing, at least in my office, the vast majority of cases we'vebeen getting over the last year, which would, by the way, coincidewith the global pandemic, I've been mental health and reading. Andnot necessarily they go hand in hand, I don't want to freak anybodyout. But I have noticed that those are the two primary that arecoming to my office. And so we here in Connecticut are searchingfor people to assess and make recommendations for children withreading and language issues. And so that's why I wanted to have youon here because I want to talk to you about some of these criticalpieces for teaching children with reading or language deficits thatwe may not fully understand. So for example, I'm sure many peoplehave heard the term. If you're familiar with reading programs,you've heard the term Wilson reading or Orton Gillingham, or maybeeven Linda mood Bell, or something along those lines. And these aredifferent strategies. So Kate, I wanted to bring you in to talkabout what are the issues that we're seeing pop up now? And and howdo we address them? How do we assess them? And what what is theright way to find the proper services moving forward? So first, I'mgoing to ask you, why am I asking you? Why are you the person Imeet is going to tell me what I need to know about reading andlanguage. How'd you get here? Well, it's been a very longjourney.
Kate Pearce 01:51
It's not something you just fall upon. For me, I think everythingin life kind of happens for a reason. And as a proud dyslexic, andthe youngest of three with dyslexia, it's been long, but each phaseof my career and life has brought me to this phase. So I was aspecial ed teacher in New York, and a general teacher and I have amaster's in literacy. And no one ever taught me how to teach yourchild to read. And that's pretty scary when you have a master's inliteracy. And I was gonna say and undergrad in special education.But I knew that I could help children in special ed in a special edround because I too struggled. And here I was smart. Collegegraduate from Fordham honor roll student in college, not so much myyounger years or high school. School Board me in high school, Ijust was like, it's I went, I want to go to college because Iwanted a party to be honest. And I want that social interaction andexperience. But the thought of adulting was just a lot for me.Because I knew I was meant to do great things. But I just neverthought I was smart enough. But I knew kids and I know peoplereally, really well. So and I knew I couldn't be a psychologist orpsychiatrist because that is just way too enjoyable for me. So longstory short, I went to education became a special educationteacher. And I was I realized I wasn't prepared to be it. You know,I have these students that couldn't read, but no one, I would givethem more guided reading. And I have them in small groups, and I'dbe looking at pictures with them. And they would make progress, butnot the progress that they should have. I had a parent It was kindof like, you know, several years in and I had a parent say to methat she thought her child was dyslexic, and I 100% agreed withher. I just didn't know how to prove it. And it was the first timethat a parent said that to me. And I went to the schoolpsychologist and said, I have a student mom thinks the child'sdyslexic. He said there's no test for dyslexia. And then I thought,That's odd. How is there no test for dyslexia? I know. You know, mybrothers and I lived in the neighboring town and we haveclassifications is that how is there no real task, there has to besomething. And I as a dyslexic, you do become insecure. You startto doubt your own knowledge and your own like I'm like, Oh, I guesshe's right. There is no real test, although I knew I was right. ButI just didn't know how to prove it. And Google wasn't really a bigthing then. So I just kind of kept doing what was not reallyworking. And at the time, I had a stepsister who was started. Shewas recently classified or got started privately working with anOrton Gillingham teacher. She was like in fifth grade or so. Andshe was making all this progress. And I heard her talking about hertutor and how and I'm like, wow, that's what my students need thisexplicit instruction that like So I brought it up. I said, I wantto be trained in this thing called Orton Gillingham. Or maybeWilson. And I was poopoo. They're like, no, you're in there, theliteracy specialist came back up to my classroom showband do moreguided reading. And I'm like, I just don't I don't get it. I don'tget how these kids are going to learn how to read. And then I'mthinking, How the heck did I learned how to read. And really, Ilearned how to read because I did get some phonics instruction. Andso they kept saying that the more you immerse, then these parentsare not reading to their children. I'm like, No, these parents,they want to help them too, because they're struggling, but andthey just don't know how to help these kids. They want to help.
Dana Jonson 05:39
I remember that, too. I remember when I was teaching, there was abig, and to some degree, it was true, which was some of ourstudents really didn't have anyone reading for them at home. And I,you know, in the population I was teaching, but at the same hand, Ithought, I can't imagine that every kid here hasn't been read to doyou know what I mean? It was a little hard to imagine that that wasthe number one reason for everyone's failure in the readingprogram. Yeah.
Kate Pearce 06:08
Yes. And it's so I'm like, these parents are willing to theirgrandparents are willing to giving them sending them home morebooks, they can't like, and then I start to doubt yourself. And Idon't know, like as a dyslexic, I just think I think you doubtyourself more, even though. And I do feel like coming back to that,you know, you're at the beginning of this like pandemic anddepression. It's true, like, you do start to doubt yourself. And,you know, it's a terrible feeling. And it was,
Dana Jonson 06:40
I think one of our coping mechanisms for dyslexia, at least for meis guessing. Right. So I'm guessing and when you get used toguessing it's a crapshoot. You're not always right. So I thinkmaybe we condition ourselves to know that, you know, I might not beright. I might be guessing. I'm just used to doing that most of thetime. And so I think you're right, that self doubt comes into play.When that's how you learned you learn by guessing all the time.
Kate Pearce 07:13
It shouldn't, you shouldn't really have to learn to guess. And,like, yeah, it's an efficient way. And it definitely takes youlonger to get there. But anyway, I was pregnant with my oldest. Andit was I was a leave replacement. And it was just like, you knowwhat, I can't do this anymore. And I decided to leave teaching. AndI was like, I'm done. I'm saying goodbye to the teaching world. AndI was going to be a stay at home for a little bit. But I knewfinancially we couldn't really do it. But I also knew that therewas something else greater than me, although it was a very darktime and thinking I just have this new baby, I have a house have amortgage, I have a family, and how am I going to support them?Because what else am I good at besides people and knowing them? Andit's like the stars all aligned, and I was looking for jobs onCraigslist before it was creepy. And I saw an advertisem*nt forthis woman from the academy board Gillingham, which I had no ideawhat it really was opening a practice in that in Chappaqua, NewYork. And she was hiring people. So I went and sent her my resume.And I sat and talked further and I just fell in love from the firstconversation and she just got me and it was amazing. And as we weretalking, I asked her Wait a second is your daughter Katie, andshe's like, yes. Turned out her daughter was the one who taught mystepsister how to read. And so it was kind of like, wow, this isours aligning, stars aligning, and she was like, I'm a fellow fromthe Academy of Orton Gillingham. And I smiled not because I had noidea what the hell that was. And she's like, I'm going to teach youthis program. And the first five minutes of her Orton Gillinghamcourse, I was hooked. I couldn't eisert became a The good thingabout being dyslexic and ADHD become obsessive over things. And Ithink I became obsessive like I it was my brain she was talkingabout it was how you learn how we're totally brilliant. It's not anintellectual disability, but a literally different wiring in ourbrain and how we process information and just getting theinformation to the right spot. And for the next decade, I was ableto learn under her and learn the Orton Gillingham approach onestudent at a time with not having judgment or the pressure of aschool district or I could do what's right and I could askquestions and Learn it. And it's taken me over a decade to reallylearn it well. And I think that's what teachers need to realizethat it's okay. You might not know all the answers right away,because it is a process. It does take a long time to learn. Butit's fascinating. And then long, long, long story short, after ourbusiness started growing so big in Connecticut that three yearsago, almost she said, you know, Kate, time you take the reins,would you like to take over my business? And I did, I took overthat portion of Connecticut, and we just have kept getting biggerand bigger. And so here we are today trying to educate parents. Andyeah.
Dana Jonson 10:42
And I think it's really critical, because, you know, dyslexia hasbecome more known and understood, I think, over the years, but Ialso find in the last year, as I said, the uptake has really beenin reading and mental health. And I think we can all assume we knowwhat the mental health issues are, we're all stuck at home, there'sa global pandemic. You know, I'd be shocked if we didn't havemental health issues going on with our students and our parents andour teachers and everybody else. But this reading component thathas popped up, is it. Are you feeling that this is because I mean,are parents noticing more? Is it because we're relying more onreading? What is happening, that we're seeing this uptick inreading? deficits that we're finding during this pandemic time?Do
Kate Pearce 11:38
you see I don't think there's an uptick of seeing, I think it'salways been there, one in five children are dyslexic, one in five.But I think it's becoming we're shining a bigger light on it now.And there's a few reasons for that one, social media and decodingdyslexia groups like that. Parents are becoming more educated onwhat is happening in reading, they're starting to realize thattheir child is not reading. But what's happened is them the studentbeing home, and the parents that the parents might be working rightnext to them. And they can't help them because they're workingthemselves. And the child is sitting there because they reallyaren't independent, like they, the parents thought they were. Andit's the parents anxieties are going up, like why is like someonehelp my child, they're drowning, I'm trying to work. It's all andthe kids being kind of left to their own devices. And then the kidsfeeling their own anxiety, because there's really no one there tohelp them unless they're in a breakout room. And they and they'rebeing asked to be independent. And they're not independent.
Dana Jonson 12:50
And if you find their kids, you can, sorry, do you find that kidscan mass that more when they're in the classroom, because that'swhat I think is happening, I feel that it's not suddenly more kidshave dyslexia or reading and language issues, it's that they're notable to pick up on all the cues that they were able to enlistbefore, that they had strategies, maybe that were helping them getthrough the classroom or through the day, and now all of that isremoved?
Kate Pearce 13:21
Is that part of it? I think that's part of it. Like, you know, Iremember like, copying off the kid next to me in second grade.
13:28
Yeah,
Kate Pearce 13:29
like, oh, okay, it looks and making it look like I knew what I, youknow, I was doing kids are really good at faking what looksappropriate, because they want to be that. Right? So I do thinkthat like, that's part of it, I think teachers could move around alittle bit, obviously easier in a classroom or be like, sit overhere, let me show you this, while they do three other, you know,work with three other students at the same time. So I do thinkthat's part of it. I think that for the most part, kids that arejust just struggling because there's no one there really to helpthem. And the parents are getting really frustrated because they'restarting to see it too. And there's only one modality that they'rebeing taught through the computer, and there's not teachers are notdoing reading kind of the way it should be done.
Dana Jonson 14:20
So when we're talking about deficit, such as dyslexia, and and I dothink there's a good point that you brought up before we startedrecording, which was, I'd mentioned that you were a readingspecialist, and you said, well, it's reading in language, which Ithink is a really important point. Because I think sometimes wethink of reading as sort of off on an island there and either youcan do it or you can't. But it's it's a much bigger component thanthat. Excuse me. So, when you talk about reading and language, howdo those tie in together as, as a whole component that we'reworking on with children?
Kate Pearce 14:57
Well, because reading is The goal of learning of reading is forcomprehension, right, that's our end goal is to obtain moreknowledge, but also part of reading. And language together iswriting, writing is the highest order of language, and so be ableto output their thoughts. So first comes reading, lots of firstcome speaking and listening. And then the next comes reading. Sothen writing. So if as soon as starting with a leaky bottom withlike speaking and listening, if you have a child that's, you know,our late talker, or would get speech and language services forarticulation, they might be starting with a leaky bottom. And so wegot to make sure that we're addressing those students at thebottom. And then we go, you know, into that learning how to readproperly. And then the writing, you know, writing is the highestorder of language, it's the hardest thing. I'm a very good writernow, but it's also probably takes me twice as long to write morethan other people.
Dana Jonson 16:03
Yeah, I find it's really hard for I have all the ideas in my head,it's focusing them, to get them out is usually the challenging,narrowing them down when you talk about, you know, researchingthings incessantly, I call them my rabbit holes, you know, as Ijumped down my rabbit holes, which has been helpful for me, andonce I was finally diagnosed with ADHD, and dyslexia at 19, I had Iknew which rabbit hole to go down, you know, and, and instead ofstudying everything a little bit, I could figure out what it was,and dive into that entirely. So, you know, as you said, you had adiagnosis of dyslexia, there had to be some kind of test for it. Iam still hearing that I'm still having parents come to me and say,I know they have dyslexia, but I can't get a diagnosis. I can't getthe school to a grade. Where does a parent start? When when youfeel that their language and or reading issues for your child? And?And I do you think it's important to identify that those are thesame and different? Because language is much bigger? Right? Readingjust falls under one component of language? Yes. And so when youhave any language deficit, it's going to impact you in any of thoseareas. Correct. It's not just like, Oh, I just suddenly don't havean issue here. But over here, I'm just fine. Right? It's it'sacross the board. So how do we as parents go about figuring outexactly what those deficits are? And how to address them? If we'renot, if you know, if there's no test for dyslexia, but I'm prettysure there is now
Kate Pearce 17:42
Yes, I mean, for Yes, that is a lie. And if any district tells youthat, or they can't identify dyslexia as a school team. Now, aguidance came out in 2016, saying that school teams are allowed toidentify students with dyslexia and say dyslexia, it's not likethere's a whole movement called the SE dyslexia movement, like, sayit like it's a dirty, bad word. And some teachers are holding on tothese old administrator tales that have been passed down to them.That saying that you can't say that, that it's not true. You canand the way we tell is, by not just there's not one test fordyslexia, there's many, and you look at, you just have to have adeficit in, you know, fluency, comprehension, decoding spelling,one of those will give you a, that is dyslexia, you don't have tohave all of them. Usually you do, but you don't. But I always askparents, when they come to me, I say, Well, where do you What wereyou like as a reader? And usually, that's the biggest indication.And for me with I have two boys that I started from the beginning.Like, I am going to teach them how to read properly from thebeginning. And my oldest actually did a really good job. Myyoungest, of course, we were talking about four, our youngest kindof slipped through the cracks sometimes. Yeah, he is probably oneof those kids out, although I was very with phonological awarenesswith him. I was crazy. He knew all his rhymes, and like he wasready to return to kindergarten. And so he did struggle though,because I kind of let him go off to dinner thinking that everyoneknows who I am. And the fact that they know that this is how I wanthim to be taught. And he kind of got caught up in the wholelanguage component of reading and by January, the kid who wouldn'tgo to school, and it was heartbreaking as a parent, but it was alsoOh my God, I see. This is how all these kids that and I was able tocatch it, but I had to prove that his stupid tra he couldn't readeven though it was putting on kindergarten level. But one thing Ido and parents, I think I suggest that if you really are concernedthat your child's not reading, type up the book that the schoolsays their reading and what level they are, put it on a piece ofpaper and type it and then have your child read it, and then recordthem reading and bring it to me. This is sound like a reader, youtold me my child read that. And that's kind of what I did. Likeyou're saying, My child's a reader, but he's not.
Dana Jonson 20:27
So what's the difference? When you say type up the book thatthey're reading? What is the difference between handing them thatpiece of paper versus the book that they're used to reading?
Kate Pearce 20:34
So by doing that I'm taking I'm only making my child focus on thewords and be seen not pictures, or the story or telling himbackground information like this little this book is about Bobbyand Bobby is going to a circus today. And can you help him lookfor? And so I'm not giving him any other clues, just the words. Andthat's what we want. We want to I want to know if he could read thewords. And it's really evident early on that. They're not readersbased on, you know, your assessments, but Connecticut is gettingbetter, although it is. They're doing universal screeners now. Andso all kids from kindergarten through third grade have to take auniversal screener, and it tests for red flags of dyslexia, or likeany reading reaction, not just Oh, Alexia Butlin,
Dana Jonson 21:33
so when you say universal screener, that means, like some kind ofassessment that they give all students,
Kate Pearce 21:39
all students so, and our My goal is to start it with pediatriciansstarted at four, three and ask, you know, we asked, we're so weasked parents, like, pediatricians will say to me, I remember withmy son's a little can, it doesn't make eye contact doesn't, youknow, trust himself, can you do this, but they're not asking KennyRyan? And he, you know, what else can he do? Can he if I say cup,can he say, Towson that rides with a cup or a cup without the cup?Can he hear we're not asking those questions early on, which weshould be because for having a phonological awareness is what weknow. Now children need to learn to read
Dana Jonson 22:22
how to children develop that phonological awareness. And, you know,I guess, you know, without getting into the argument over whoshould be raising our children, you know, whether it's a stay athome mom who happens to be a reading specialist, or, you know, or,or a child in daycare, or a child, wherever they are, what shouldwe be doing to, you know, support the phonological awareness,because I think that we all think we are, I mean, I know I did, Iknew I had dyslexia, I knew there's a good chance my kids mighthave it. I surrounded them with, you know, books and stuff likethat, but even just listening to you. And as somebody who taughtWilson for five minutes in my life, at some point, as a special edteacher, I still wasn't 100% sure what I was doing was right. SoHow can parents be more secure and sure about what they should besupporting, and then that's looking for in their child.
Kate Pearce 23:22
So I would, I think the way I handled it with my second, I did apretty good job, with the fact with rhyming, nursery rhymes, music,all of that will benefit your child before they start withkindergarten, we do not want to be showing kids, you know, letters,we're so obsessed with letters, and showing them letters and thesounds that they make. And we our brains were never designed tolearn to read, our brains were designed to see objects. And theobjects we see are in 3d. So when we give a child, a three yearold, four year old, and we're showing them all these letters andsight words to memorize, that is not helping them learn to read,that's actually just doing the opposite. What they're doing isclogging their brains to memorize more things, and they're notgoing to have enough data in their brains to hold on to what theyneed to hold on to when they get there. So if I was, as a parent,what I tell all my clients that come through our door is start withphonological awareness, making sure they hear sounds, manipulatingsounds, take little pom poms, different colors, and say, okay, upwith different colors for each sound before without lettersattached. You don't want the letters attached. And when they're soyoung, you just want them to be able to hear and manipulate thesounds. And then when they get to first grade or kindergarten, Imean, they will learn the letters, and then they'll be able tocorrelate the sounds with them and be able to manipulate thembecause they're starting to have a phonological awareness. A thirdof kids pick that up automatic They just have to be exposed to it,they hear it, they put it into their graphic memory. And they're,they're good to go. Those are natural readers.
Dana Jonson 25:10
But I think I heard that because again, like I have one foot in thehomeschooling world, and I hear people say, Oh, well, I nevertaught my kids to read ever, and they just sort of learned. And Ithink, well, there is a third of children who will write if they'rejust, if they're given material, and it's around them, they willdevelop that skill of reading. But that's only one third ofchildren.
Kate Pearce 25:36
Exactly. And what we do know is another third children need thatexplicit, or they get need to be exposed to phonics, andphonological awareness and the phonemic awareness and hearing thedifferent sounds, but they'll get it sprinkled here and there and ateacher will point something out, and they'll be okay. Yeah, thenwe know another third children, the one and five are dyslexic, thatneed that explicit, multi sensory structured, sequential approachto learning to read. So they don't have to, you know, guess lateron,
Dana Jonson 26:15
get used to guessing. So, how do we, if we've assessed it, we, youknow, when a parent comes to school and says, I have a concern, isit a regular psycho educational? That is the standard evaluationthat all school districts do when we're talking about specialeducation? Is that type of assessment going to identify dyslexia orrate reading and language deficits to the extent that we need themto?
Kate Pearce 26:44
I will tell parents this, if you have concerns early on, likekindergarten, first grade, look at those assessments, ask them whatscreeners they're using, that are based on science, notobservation, not like a D RA, or an F NP, they're called, those areall based on observations. We don't want that we what are we wantevidence based screener and I'd look at those screeners becausesome kids do pass them, you then if you really do still haveconcerns, I would go to your school first ask for the testing, thenwhen the testing comes back, they should be showing every substancecore in there, because Dyslexics hide in the sub tests. And it'snot just one sub test. It's not and it's not just one test. Theyshouldn't be doing, you know, just a regular cognitive. But theyshould be doing a gamut, like I'd want like it's called the sea toplike that's a test of phonological processing. I want a real morein depth writing as if they're like, in fourth grade or actualthird grade and above, you know, what schools will do it they'llsay, Oh, well, we did the you know, cognitive Woodco*ck Johnson andin that their writing is average. Well, their writing is average,because all they have to do is put words in order, just like aspark. It's not intellect. This is not an intellectualdisability.
Dana Jonson 28:10
I think that's where we get confused. Because typically, childrenwith dyslexia, again, their coping mechanism is to figure it out.And the coping mechanism is to present like you understand, not toactually understand. So the fact that a child with those deficitscould present as fully understanding is what we should expect
28:36
your act.
Dana Jonson 28:38
Yeah. Right. So I mean, that's that's the whole thing. That's Imean, when we talk about the insecurities and all those pieces thatcome from the entire coping mechanism is to guess what they'redoing and and figure out how to get really good at that. So then Iagree with you i that's why I was asking about the the psychoeducational because a lot of times, I'll have a student come backand it says, well, the overall is well within the average range,but we have to look at Yeah, but within those smaller sub testswithin it, do we see a lot of scatter? Are their skill sets allover the place? Or if the test comes back, that they're average,and they're still struggling? I would argue we need moreassessments. And I feel like sometimes the the response thatparents get are no, your child tested in the average range, sothey're fine. This is not our problem. So what can parents say ordo to dig a little deeper? I always say, you know, the moreinformation the better. But would you recommend like a specific isthere specific language that you think triggers that evaluation?Like what is it the parents are looking for? like yeah, I know thistest says average but I'm still really concerned.
Kate Pearce 29:54
This is I also this is my hurdle lately, what I've noticed nowstudents grades are totally inflated, especially because of thepandemic. Yeah, it's really cannot. And so you have kids that aregetting A's and are on honor roll, but they don't even deservethose A's. But the teachers feel like they're one they can't reallyassess because of the way they everything is. And they, they,meanwhile, teachers, they, they want, you know, all there for them,that is really, you know, they earned it because they are workingreally hard. So it's a false sense of security that parents areseeing, because teachers are giving these kids grades that are notreally where they are. And we and the assessments that they'regiving in the classroom are just complete garbage, and are notYeah, like, accurate of who they are. And we're also not assessingwriting, I give the child a writing sample, I can tell you so muchabout how that child can read their spelling, and what is going onjust by looking at their writing sample. So as a parent, a giveyour child a piece of paper and say, write a story about a friend.Is there Can they write more than two sentences? Like Where arethey? They should be able to write multi paragraphs by fourthgrade.
Dana Jonson 31:15
Yeah, I have. Well, so we had a foster some foster children livingwith us and over the holidays. And I asked the 10 year old, youknow, I asked all of them, give me your Christmas list, right? So Iget this list from a 10 year old and I was appalled. It was just itwas there was no, it was not a child who knew how to write periodyet. And he's doing great in school. Right? So I reached out to histeacher directly. And, of course, she's his new teacher this year,she's never seen a piece of his writing, because they've beendistanced the whole time. So there's no writing sample. I don't Idon't blame her. She had no clue. You know, when I when I showedher the Christmas list, she said her response was Yes, that'sprobably, you know, but we're in this crazy time right now, whereit's, I don't know, if it's harder to identify or easier toignore.
Kate Pearce 32:14
It's easier to ignore. I think teachers are just so overwhelmedwith putting everything on line and trying to figure it all outthat and parents, some parents just don't want to know right now.They're just treading water themselves. And they're trying tomanage working from home and making sure their kids are online, andthey're trying to feed their families. So right now, parents arejust in survival mode. But if this is our new reality, and whoknows what the fall will bring, as schools and teachers, we have toget better at identifying them. So if that means having a parent,take a picture of your child's writing, and email it over to you,that's what we got to do. And let me just these kids are socomputer savvy, they could figure out how to take a picture andsend it to you, there's going to be very few children that you'renot going to be able to get that from if you ask.
Dana Jonson 33:14
Now when I was growing up and and to date myself, the world ofcomputers was up and coming. And everything well, you don't have tolearn how to write because you're going to type, that's what you'regoing to do. So you no longer need to learn how to write no one,you just need a signature. That's it, you don't really need to andI have heard the suggestion a few times that children get text toread software, which is a little different than just audiobooks.Text to read has a different sound. It's not somebody reading thematerial attempting to be just, you know, computer, generating thewords, I have found, at least with my daughter that books on tapesignificantly helped her reading she actually reads while listeningto them. And that was huge for her with fluency because she getsstuck when she doesn't understand something. So with the tape topush her forward, but what are your thoughts on on text to speakbecause I don't envision a world where we still don't need ourreading and language skills. And I worry that we're looking towardssort of putting a bandaid on some of the issues and saying, Well,you know, maybe we could just get someone to read them thequestions or we can get a reader. You know, what, what is your takeon those kinds of accommodations that maybe aren't actuallyteaching the student but maybe just helping them get through.
Kate Pearce 34:41
So as far as audiobooks and books on tape, I'm all for it,especially in the older grades because reading is made up of aformula. It's decoding plus vocabulary equals comprehension. So youwant that vocabulary and the only and they're not reading gradelevel. material, that the only reason the way they're going to getvocabulary is by reading. So we Sorry, my son is half naked infront of me and happens. So you want that vocabulary. So if they'rein seventh grade, fifth grade, and they're really at a first gradelevel, they have to have access to the same grade level materials,and they're not going to be able to read them. So right, what youwant them to do is find a way to build that vocabulary and accessto the same curriculum. Again, I cannot stress this enough, theyare had the same if not higher, IQs as their peers, they just don'tprocess language the same, but they can listen to it and be haveaccess to the same vocabulary and the higher level conversationsand thinking, I recently and this infuriates me, and I'm tellingbecause I'm angry, I won't call out the district, but it's veryhard for me not to, but I had a fifth grader barely read a secondgrade level. And I want them a part of this history and sciencecannot read the material. So instead of giving them audiobooks, ordifferent little readers to help accommodate that, they put them ina second grade history curriculum, oh my gosh, is learning aboutcommunities don't even get me like I don't know why we're learningabout communities. in second grade, we should be learning thatpreschool like every kid knows, the fireman is in the UnitedStates. So it's just, it was so one How humiliating for this child,who can't imagine to be part of the conversation and has greatthoughts and ideas. There's learning about community workers. Andthat was their solution. Because he's reading at a second gradelevel, we'll put them in a second grade. And I'm like, absolutelynot. The only way to build that reading is also to give them accessto the curriculum and the vocabulary. So that's why with thewriting, we have so far to go. In this country with how we teachwriting we've gotten, we know what science tells us about reading,we know that they need a direct explicit structure, multi sensoryapproach to reading, writing, they need the same thing. So justletting a child dictate into a computer. First of all, it's goingto be all off anyway, because they don't know they have a hard timewith grammar. And it's not directly taught. Now, again, I never wastold how to teach someone how to write I was, I would read books,and I knew I was a big into Teacher's College. And I think what Iliked about teachers college was that it gave me something comingout of school, it gave me every lesson. Now knowing it wasn'tbacked by science or anything. But at least it gave me something, Ihad nothing. I had no idea what I was doing. So giving now lookingback, like I'm like, Oh my god, all these kids need a directwriting program. And so that's what I've really been fighting forjust as much in schools is to get these kids at direct writingprogram, like writing revolution, by Judith Hoffman, who taught atwindward, it's a direct, multi sensory structured program thatteaches kids from basic sentence levels and fragments to multiparagraph and how to come up with those ideas. Kids with dyslexiahave a hard time with language in general, it's hard for them. Sothey're not going to have all the words to help them. But by justhaving them talk it. You don't talk the way you write. And it'sunrealistic to think that if you could just do text to speech, allof a sudden there, it's going to solve their problems. Because whathappens a teacher comes in and edits it makes it sound right. Andthen lo and behold, you have an A student that goes to collegeand
Dana Jonson 39:04
doesn't know how to write that doesn't matter. Right? No, it's
Kate Pearce 39:06
it's, it's
Dana Jonson 39:08
interesting that you say that, because that is so true. And I thinkabout even in my own office, when, you know, pre COVID, I spent alot of time on the road. And so I do a lot of dictating, and it isnot easy. It's really not it's not easy to dictate the way I wantsomething written when I'm speaking. So I would imagine the reverseis just as difficult. And I think it comes down to that piece wherewe're not just talking about reading, we're not just talking aboutwriting, we're talking about language, and the writing and thereading are the byproducts of understanding language. And I thinkwe get that confused with as you said, cognitive ability. You know,if it's easy for us to read, somehow we must be smarter, which isjust not the case at all.
40:01
But you also
Dana Jonson 40:01
talked about very specific instruction for reading and writing. Andthat, you know, brings me to this other piece, which is once we'veidentified children with dyslexia or a writing issue, and they needthat support, how are we providing it, and I feel like thereluctance to identify a child with dyslexia was really areluctance to acknowledge they needed a specific kind ofinstruction that the school doesn't have. And that was the caseversus the child doesn't have dyslexia. But now, we're allowed tosay dyslexia, we're allowed to diagnose with dyslexia, we'reallowed to say the child has dyslexia. So once we've establishedthat, just saying a multi sensory approach is not the way to do it.And I know that because that's what we did when I was teaching wayback when which was it's multi sensory, which means it's a littlebit of everything and a lot of nothing. So what are we looking forwith that instruction, once we identify that there's a deficit,whether we're calling it dyslexia or not, and it is impactingwriting, and it's impacting everything else about this child'sability to communicate and learn what what type of instruction arewe looking for, for the student who needs this?
Kate Pearce 41:21
We do need a derived has to be it. This is a rabbit hole in itself.But it definitely has to be the teacher, the level of training hasto be the highest level of training, at least, you have to have twoteachers in a building that have or that are highly trained in adirect, explicit multi sensory, structured approach to reading.Now, every program, Orton Gillingham is an approach. And there'smany different types of Orton Gillingham programs out there. Butthey all should follow a clear scope and sequence. And they allshould have. And when I say multi sensory, I don't just mean ithink that means something different to everybody. I don't know,like I was in a meeting last week. And I asked the teacher Well,what does that mean, multi sensory, and she was like, well, theyhave, you know, a pen, and they're writing. And I'm like, no, itmulti sensory includes all senses, your reading and writing andseeing and speaking all at the same time. And you're usingmanipulatives. And you are addressing that phonological awarenesscomponent and phonemic awareness component. So many programs arenot addressing that kids get into like a small group. And theteacher just starts, you know, talking and lecturing more than thekids are actually writing, hearing it, seeing their mouth feelingit. That's what we want our students to do that we want them tohear, see, feel, use all their senses at the same time to reallyget it in their brains, because especially Dyslexics, they don'tsee. They see pictures, they need that other sense to understandand really make it concrete. And I think that's where teachers geta little confused.
Dana Jonson 43:23
And I think there's a lot you know, when you talk about somethinglike Orton Gillingham, there is a specific training, right? Soyeah, a lot of these programs, have specific trainings havespecific hierarchies of who's trained and who they should befollowing under. So my frustration is, in hearing teachers or staffsay, Oh, well, they're trained, and then find out they went to aweekend workshop. So, I mean, it's better than nothing. But are youfinding that schools are getting to a place where they're willingto invest in the proper training for their staff? Or are we still,you know, under the, the pandemic, I think what we've reallydiscovered in many ways is what schools can and can't do. And Ifind that we are seeking outside reading evaluators, much more thanwe were before, which I think is good, because I think schooldistricts are starting to recognize that their own staff is notable to identify these issues at this point. And I feel like if youcan identify them, how on earth are you going to address them?
Kate Pearce 44:31
Well, this is the problem. They think they can identify them. Butthey're not. And that is a major problem. When they think they're athey think they're doing the right thing. They had a workshop, theyhad a training, oh, I'm trained now. But when you the way I couldtell I could tell everything by a program by the IEP goals. Okay, Iread an IEP goal, and it's says, You know, I just won recently andwas like, will read more fluently I'm like, fluidly? What does thehell does that mean? At what level you have a third grader? Like?Are they reading at a first grade level more fluently? And how manywords correct are they reading? Like, we're in knowing thatknowledge and then at digging a little deeper, like, well, whatwere you using to it was all based on observation. And I'm like,Oh, no, but what we know with kids that struggle, and most kidsneed an a plan, an explicit plan to learn how to read, and they'redoing a hodgepodge program. So these teachers get some training,and they come back to the classroom, and they don't implement itcorrectly, because they're still using their toolbox. Or they'llsay Orin Gillingham is just a tool in my toolbox.
45:51
That's what I hear a lot.
Kate Pearce 45:52
I do not want to hear that is a tool in your toolbox for mydyslexic child's? Because they don't need any other tool exceptknowing Is it a sound outward? Or is it a sight word, those are theonly two tools they need, and that toolbox in the beginning. Andthen as a real strong Orton Gillingham tutor or teacher will knowthat, of course, our end goal is comprehension. And our our endgoal is to teach them how to read and we're going to teach themcomprehension and fluency. A good teacher incorporates all of thecomponents of reading into their instruction. What we don't do isgive them strategies. A little bit of this strategy and a littlebit of that I do not want to see a child looking at the picture,and the first letter of a word to figure it out. Because what dothey do when there's no pictures? If we're not teaching? And how dowe know this is another big hot button issue got me all fired upnow is that we're doing these, they'll say, I'm going where thechild is. So I noticed today that they didn't know AI. Sotomorrow's lesson is gonna have a lot of words with AI. And then Imight notice that they have Oh, art tomorrow, but then it's notbuilding on it. And so when that foundation,
47:13
yeah, and that's when I get
Dana Jonson 47:14
frustrated, because the science shows that doesn't work. So why arewe still doing it? And I have had to find a nice way to say thatno,
Kate Pearce 47:26
no, I don't I I will, I will tell you this. I recently was in adistrict, same actually same district that was using the secondgrade curriculum. And I said, the same thing. I said, Why are weusing other strategies? like looking at the picture? And they werelike, that director of Special Ed said, we're not a one trick pony.I said, Oh, no, no, no, yes, you are a one trick pony. When itcomes to the science of reading, that we know what the neurosciencesays how kids learn to read. And pictures is not beneficial to themas a reader. And her argument was at that level at a second grade,first grade reading level pictures is absolutely appropriate. Youcould sit there and argue to you're blue in your face, the face, Ijust send them the data and science after the meeting and just havethem document that we don't want them using that strategy. It's notbeneficial to them as a reader, because I'm also seeing kids whoseparents think they have tracking issues. And I'm like, why I'mgetting all these kids with tracking issues. So of course, myobsessive compulsive, nerdy side of me needed to dig deeper intowhy am I getting all these tracking issue kids? And because I andthen I doctors are not really seeing it as well. It's because we'reteaching kids to look everywhere. But the words, they're looking upat the pictures, they're looking, they're skipping, they're lookingfor clues. They're looking for clues, and they're not focusing onthe actual word. And so like, Well, that makes sense. And so wehave a bunch of kids that have look like they're having trackingissues, but it's not really tracking. It's just they're looking forother clues. And yes, we have to get, and I also had asuperintendent of school I was pretty close with. And we weretalking and she was telling me like, honestly, it's so expensive toget these two teachers trained, like, but what happens, you getthem trained, and she found a workshop for them, which was great,like a 30 hour one and he listened. 30 hours is better than nohours. Yeah, but the poor teachers come back. And they don't knowhow to implement it. They have no one to supervise them. They haveno one to supervise them or give them actual tools and like ideason how to implement it. And here's a really great lesson in how wedo it. And a plan, like your plan should follow this scope andsequence every time you Your your students should know where you'regoing to start every single time they should be able to tell youwhat's going to come next. And what that and it's reciprocal keepsgoing around like you every single time and it's just part of it.It's time teachers just don't have the time. Yeah.
Dana Jonson 50:19
Well, and I think that's why we're looking so strongly to outsidesources now, because we don't and training is harder to do in apandemic. So we're looking to people who are already trained, whoknow what they're doing. So what is it that you bring to the table?Okay, so you do assessments, do you? You know, I'm just curious,like your cape Pierce educational services, do you consult? Do youhelp set up programs? Do you just do assessments? What do you bringto the table in this process,
Kate Pearce 50:54
I bring it all to the table, I bring my everything I bring myknowledge of you. I have over 15 to 16 tutors that are all trainedin Orton Gillingham at a minimum of a 16 hour course by a fellowDr. Brown, who trained me. And then they get to learn just like Idid one student at a time they get, you know, we bounce ideas offeach other, I get to mentor them, and they become experts, if notbetter than I am now at it, because they get to have that luxury aswell. So when this child comes into my practice, I do anassessment, usually informal assessments to kind of see where Iwould start and where the holes are. Sometimes I'd say listen, theyneed more speech and language testing, or they need a full neuropsych. There's more going on globally than right now then I couldtest for if you come to me with a lot of testing from the school orwhat have you, I will take it and I will come up with a treatmentplan. I tell kids, I'm like a detective. I take clues. I will takeclues from your parents, I take clues from the student, I askedthem a ton of questions like how do you feel about reading? What doyou struggle with it? Don't tell me what your parents you've heardyour parents say? Or you've heard teachers say what are you feellike it's happening, kids are really a really good indication ofwhere they struggle, what they need help with. And then I put itall together in a treatment plan of what skills we're going to workon right away. This is where we're going to start in the wordGillingham program. And this is how we're going to remediate it.And this is I'm going to put this child with this tutor becausethey're a great match. Now sometimes we get calls a lot of timesnow from schools and they'll call me and say, Kate, we have astudent for you that really needs a more intense, you know,remediation, and one of my tutors will go into this, we'll do thesame process, I'll look through their IEP, we'll come up with aplan, we'll meet with the schools. And that's actually becoming oneof the more favorite parts of my job. Because I do get to for solong, I felt a little lonely. I just saw these students and then Ileave and then I had no other adults around. Right? You know, butso it's great to collaborate with these teachers and be like, Okay,what is happening? Why are you able to, you know, we're going to dothe decoding part you work, you could work on fluency. And the wayyou're going to work on fluency is we're going to give you what towork on. So you're not kind of overstepping or we're going to helpyou understand that you're missing you're doing Wilson but yourchild's not making progress, why well look at their phonologicalawareness. Again, that's where we learn start to learn how to readthey don't hear sounds, listened doesn't incorporate that how couldso I'll help teachers and give them actual lessons and do it withthem and show him how to do it instead of just giving them a bunchof theory about how it should I will show them how to do it.
Dana Jonson 53:49
And I think an important piece that I've heard you haven't said itdirectly but what I've heard from you is that just because you arefollowing a very prescriptive program does not mean there's noindividuality individuality sorry you know you're stillindividualizing for the student.
Kate Pearce 54:05
I think we get confused with that sometimes
Dana Jonson 54:07
I hear teachers say no I individualized so I just use what I need.No is a complete comprehensive program whichever one you choose,and or that the child requires. And following that program withinit there is individuality
54:23
Yes.
Kate Pearce 54:25
Individually says but this pick your own adventure. Yeah to read isnot beneficial to any student at all. And we've gotten so far outinto that's how that you know, it's reading is boring. We need togive them a they love. No, it's not. You are the teacher, you needto direct the ship and that is how they're going to learn. Theywill love to learn how to read when they learn to read.
54:52
Yeah,
Kate Pearce 54:53
but we can't do this pick your own adventure. If you're intobutterflies, you're gonna learn about butterflies and if you'reinto space, you're going to learn how to space And then we're goingto go from that note we were on. And that's how I was trained, Iwas trained, and we have to make reading fun and engaging. Butit'll be fun into gauging when they actually learn how to do itindividually. So it's a science, if you go to the doctor, they'regoing to give you a formula to follow. It's not, it might be alittle different than the next person that comes in, but they'reprobably going to give you you have to follow it to the tee. Andthat's, you know, what we do. And there are times where I'm like,this tutorial model one on one is not helping, they need more thanwhat we can give them. And sometimes students need to be in aprogram at like a school, where they're immersed in it all daylong. Yeah, and they are getting it from every angle in writing,reading, you know, science, math. And that's okay, that's my job tobe like, it's time to wave that white flag and say, we surrender,because, as teachers, we want to say we can do it all. But thereare students that just need more than what we can give them. And agood educator will be the one to say they need more.
Dana Jonson 56:07
And I think it's fair to say that we can't all be good ateverything. So that includes teaching. And I think a good teacherunderstands when they don't understand something. And yes, youknow, most I find most teachers are in it, because they like tolearn and they want to keep learning and your class is never thesame. And it's always different. And a lot of that is exciting. Butthere's no shame and I can't do this. And and I think we rely toomuch. And we expect teachers sometimes to be miracle workers andand they're not, you can't be providing a one on one instructionfor a student, when you've got 25 kids in the class. That's just areality. But that's why parents have to become their number oneadvocates for their students. And so for parents who are listeningto this, who are saying the only person I can talk to is KatePierce, she's the only person who knows what's going on. That's asmart
Kate Pearce 56:58
person,
Dana Jonson 56:59
that's a smart person, right? How are they going to find you? Wheream I going to so
Kate Pearce 57:04
you could go to the empowered reader.com. And you can find methere. I'm also on Facebook under Keith Pierce educationalservices, but probably through my website, and you could just sendme an email.
Dana Jonson 57:18
groovy. And I'm gonna have all that information in the show notes.So if you're listening to this, and you can't remember it, it'snon-problem, go back to the show notes and all of Kate's contactinformation will be there, as well as other information wediscussed. And I really do hope that you'll come back and and domore podcasts with me because I feel it is even scratched the tipof the iceberg of reading and language. But I am really glad thatwe got this sort of overall
57:50
picture of
Dana Jonson 57:53
what we need to be doing, because I think it's really helpful tohear the bigger process and say, you know, this is, we areindividualizing, even though it's within specific programs, andthat the hodgepodge take a little bit of everything really isn'tthe way to teach this skill. So I'm hopeful that people will takethat away from this and call you or call me and make sure they getthe right services they need for their child.
Kate Pearce 58:19
And what just one thing I want to add is we need to get teachers tobe on the same side as the parents. So often we're on the oppositeside, and it kind of puts the teachers back up against the wall. Ifwe were able to empower the teachers, by getting them the rightinstruction that they need will only help not only our children,but other students as well. So as frustrated as we might be, wehave to be advocating to get the teachers the right support.
Dana Jonson 58:49
Agreed. And I I do say that, you know, parents have to become thenumber one champion for their child's education. And if that meansa staff working with your child needs additional training, thenthat's part of it. Yep. And we should not be afraid to ask for it.So thank you, Kate. I really do appreciate all of this insight.Thanks.
